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Even though vitamins are viewed as a good “natural” option, this past week I experienced how dangerous they can be. As you can tell by the title of my post, this week I have been trying to recover from vitamin A toxicity due to taking too much vitamin A after my Naturopath prescribed it.
If you’ve read some of my previous posts, you know that I mostly follow a gluten free diet and take probiotics. After, my naturopath recommended taking fermented cod liver oil. I starting taking fermented cod liver (which is high in vitamin A). Over the past 3 years, I have been seeing a naturopathic doctor and go to get my blood checked by him regularly to see if I am low in any nutrients/vitamins. He is a big fan of getting blood work done to check for any vitamin deficiencies. If I’m ever low in a vitamin, he tells me that if I take that supplement then it will fix my acne.
At the beginning of last month, I got my blood checked for a variety of vitamins and a few other things, such as thyroid functioning.
According to my naturopathic doctor, the results of my blood test showed that I was low in vitamin A. My level was at 42mcg (picture of my blood test below). This number is at the lower end of the normal reference range, yet still within the normal range. My naturopath said that, that reference range is too broad and that my vitamin A level was really too low. He said that my low level of vitamin A was causing my acne and that if I take a vitamin A supplement, I won’t have acne any more.
I was surprised my vitamin A was at the lower end of the reference range because it has always been higher on every previous blood test, as I take 2 teaspoons of fermented cod liver oil (FCLO) daily, which has a good amount of vitamin A.
Why I got vitamin A toxicity
Since my vitamin A was low, my naturopath gave me a 100,000IU vitamin A supplement to add into my regimen. He said to take it once a day, everyday. I started taking it in addition to the FCLO (about 33,000IU vitamin A) he told me to take. After a few days of taking the large dose, I started to not feel good but, I just brushed it off. It wasn’t until 6 days after taking it, I started to get horrible symptoms (see my symptoms below) and I stopped taking all vitamin A.
Why did this happen to me? I thought, maybe it’s because I’m sensitive to the vitamin A and that’s why the symptoms are so bad. But, after reading about vitamin A online, I learned that he had given me a toxic dose.
When I thought back, none of this made sense to me and it was odd that my vitamin A came out so low because I was taking FCLO. One thing that happened concerned me though, I remembered that previous times I had tested my vitamin A, the person drawing the blood immediately wrapped the vial in foil and told me that it shouldn’t be exposed to the light as it could cause the test to be inaccurate.
Well, this last time I went to the blood drawing at the hospital, the phlebotomist, did not cover the vial at all and left it exposed to the bright fluorescent lights in the room. I thought that may have been the reason the test was inaccurate. Studies show that when the blood vial is exposed to light, it decreases the accuracy of the measurement.
Then, after a few more weeks of researching vitamin A toxicity, I learned that all blood tests for vitamin A are NOT ACCURATE!!!! They’re not an accurate representation of the amount in your system. The levels of retinol in your blood fluctuate all the time. You can take the test one day and have high number, take it the next day and have a low number. I found studies from the ’90’s that showed that patients experiencing severe vitamin A toxicity even had vitamin A blood test results within the normal or low range.
I now believe that my vitamin A level was most likely normal already and my naturopath prescribing the high dose of vitamin A caused me to get vitamin A toxicity.
What amount causes vitamin A toxicity?
There’s a lot of contradictory information online about how much vitamin A is safe to take. Even though, 100,000IU is a very high dose, most say that it doesn’t cause vitamin A toxicity unless you take it long term. However, for me it did!
Toxicity occurs with the following doses:
For adults– 25,000 IU per kg of body weight (acute-taken at one time)
-4,000 IU per kg of body weight (chronic-taken over several months)
For children– More than 300,000 IU (acute- taken at one time)
-More than 100,000 IU (chronic-taken over several months)
Even though these are the typical doses that can cause vitamin A toxicity that does not mean that lower doses cannot cause it or the symptoms. Vitamin A is a fat-soluble vitamin, which means that excess of it gets stored in your liver and fatty cells for long periods of time so it can build up in the body and it does not leave the body quickly.
My symptoms- How I found out the vitamin was the cause
During the first few days of taking the Vitamin A supplement, I felt like I had a fast heart rate but, for absolutely no reason. I brushed it off for a few days. I even looked up a connection between heart rate and vitamin A, but found no information so I thought it couldn’t be connected. There isn’t much information online about vitamin A toxicity and all the symptoms.
Then, suddenly on the 6th day of taking the vitamin A, after dinner I started to feel really dizzy, I had difficulty breathing, felt pressure on my head, bright lights bothered me, and my vision seemed off. I immediately stopped taking all vitamin A.
What I did to Treat it
I went to two doctors to see if there was anything I could do to get the vitamin A out of my system faster and feel better. Their response was to just wait it out because it is a fat soluble vitamin. They said there isn’t much you can do. This was frustrating, I felt so terrible and to hear that I have to suffer with these symptoms and there was nothing I can do to get better faster made it even worse.
I researched vitamin A toxicity online to see what I could do and the only studies I found were mostly related to vitamin A toxicity in animals, but I figured the information and treatments may be worth a try. So here they are, this is what I did/am doing:
- Taking zinc (supposed to help counteract)
- Taking vitamin C and eating a lot of foods high in vitamin C (also supposed to help counteract)
- Taking Vitamin E -I just started this today, so I can’t say whether it’s helping or not yet but, this study found in rabbits that it counteracted the vitamin A toxicity effects.
- Drinking a lot of water- Not sure how much this helps but, I do feel better staying hydrated and I figure it must help to just flush everything out of my system.
- Eating good meals that have little to no vitamin A
- Trying to exercise/move around to increase my metabolism as much as possible, despite feeling bad.
- Doing a magnesium or Epsom salt foot bath 2 times a day
How I’m doing now:
Today is the 5th day since I stopped taking the vitamin A supplement. I am feeling better since the first (worst) night I realized I had vitamin A toxicity, but still not feeling back to normal. My vision is still off, I feel dizzy, and off balance. I’m hoping that with each day I will start gradually feeling back to normal as the vitamin A decreases.
I’ll keep you posted on my progress with recovering from vitamin A toxicity.
Hello Lori and friends,
I recently have some vitamin levels check through a blood test and they are telling me my vitamin D is low and to begin supplementation. It’s at 25 using the 25-OH test. I hope this makes sense..
Is that level truly low or is that an okay level? Should I supplement?
I appreciate any feed back from you guys.
Thanks,
Ashley W.
Ashley,
What are the units next to the number 25? Are they ng/ml or nmol/l?
Hi Ashley, this site has a great breakdown of vitamin D test results: https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/i-tested-my-vitamin-d-level-what-do-my-results-mean/
The vitamin D council says we need about 40-50 ng/ml for adequate vitamin D. 20 is just mildly low.
Just saw that Brian answered you – with a great answer 🙂
Good morning all!
Lori are you eating eggs and other sources of vitamin A with no issues now?
Hi Trina!
I think you are correct about the synthetic vitamin A being more toxic however too much of any vitamin A is too toxic. Now what is “too much” is different for each person due to each persons production of RBP or retinol binding proteins. This is our body’s way of utilizing the vitamin. I too took green pastures FCLO with absolutely no issues. My young son too. It wasn’t until I used a retinoic acid facial cream that my body reacted with symptoms identical to vitamin a toxicity.
I take it your pregnant since your using the Weston price recommendations for pregnancy but I would exercise caution while taking any vitamin a supplement while pregnant. You can get plenty of vitamin a from grass fed butter and free range organic eggs.
Take care.
Happy Friday everyone!
Ashley W.
Yes, I don’t restrict my diet at all now for vitamin A.
Very interesting. I have been taking 1 tsp of green pastures fermented cod liver oil everyday for 4 years now. I have also been eating about 2 oz lamb liver 2 times a week. I haven’t experienced any of the severe symptoms. The reason I was taking so much vitamin A was because my levels also tend to be between 30-45. I have tested my levels several times over the last 4 years. But it is interesting to read that the blood tests may not be accurate at all.
I think the symptoms you were getting were mostly due to synthetic vitamin A. I don’t think FCLO from green pastures should cause any problems. The only symptoms of vitamin A toxicity that I have noticed in myself are ridges and pits in my nails which could have several causes including aging and psoarisis (I have had psoarisis rashes since before I started vit A but the pits are new).
I am not so sure about why the other commenters are experiencing issues. Synthetic retinol and topical creams might be a factor though.
I am following the weston price diet recommended for pregnancy (at least trying to). Hope I am not making a mistake.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/vitamin-a-saga/
Yes, the synthetic vitamin A was what caused vitamin A toxicity 🙁
The synthetic vitamin A turns into the same stuff and will cause the same issues as natural sources (one ounce of polar bear liver is enough to be FATAL, as it causes massive brain swelling). The Weston A Price Foundation have lost their minds over cod liver oil and it will ruin the organization if they keep ignoring this (my comments warning about vitamin A do not get posted on their website; they are in full cult mindset). Ramiel Nagel died last year of a weird brain tumor, gulping down FCLO the last several years. His intentions were good, but this one compound is simply not understood for what it really is. I will post a link to a website with two free ebooks that are must reads about what retinol really is and does in the body, and further, how it might be behind the autoimmune, autism, and Alzheimer’s epidemics.
My advice is to immediately stop all vitamin A intake from here on in. There is clear evidence birth defects go up in direct correlation with vitamin A intake. Why the heck are we risking this? And then your breastmilk will also be quite rich in retinol as well (and your baby will be getting high amounts right from the start from whatever is floating around in your blood).
We have to break this deficiency paranoia mindset. Have you seen the conditions in Bangladesh? They barely survive on a couple bowls of rice a day. Yet, virtually no birth defects or auto-immune of any kind. This debunks deficiency beliefs and points the blame at a poisoning issue (there can be deficiency issues, but it can in no way that I can see explain the disease incidence in the West).
https://ggenereux.blog/
Hi all,
I found an almond milk that does not have added vitamin a in it but it does have added calcium. I am feeling funny in my heart region. Went for a couple tests (blood and ekg) ekg was normal. Not sure if calcium is bad for us.
Anyone know?
Thanks,
Ashley
Hey Brian ,
I hope you are doing good and recovering fast ,
I recently went though a abdomen USG just for check up on my organs , although everything came out to be normal ( surprisingly my liver too) , but some occasional concretions in kidney were shown , though doctors say its nothing to worry about .
Some one has made a comment here about the possible heart valve calcification due to retinol overdose . what are you views about it , and do you know the reason behind tachycardia that happens while still on overdose state . Do you think it could be due to calcification ? and what can we possibly do to prevent it
Cheers!
Vitamin a supplement s are often made using the nightshade potatoes and taken in soybean oil which have the nightshade petunias homes in. Nightshades contain the poison solanine Look up the symptoms for solanine poisoning. They seems nearly identical to vitamin a toxicity symptoms. I have always had a nightshade sensitivity and taking vitamin a gives me the same symptoms as eating nightshades. I really suspect that vitamin a toxicity is just solanine poisoning. I think we need an antidote to solanine.
This is highly unlikely. First of all, do you have a source to verify your claim about potatoes being used to make vitamin A supplements? White potatoes have no vitamin A at all and the majority of the solanine is in the skin. Sweet potatoes have a ton of beta-carotene but they are not nightshades and do not contain solanine.
The toxic effects of vitamin A are well documented in the literature. I do not believe the toxicity seen with vitamin A supplements is because of solanine. Even if some potato ingredient were used, the concentration of solanine in the final produce would be infinitesimally small compared to the amount in just one baked potato with the skin on anyway.
If you don’t mind you can read up on dr Norman Childers who researched nightshades extensively. He warned of the dangers of nightshades and man made vitamin a was a product he advised people to avoid because potatoes are used in the production. Also vitamin a often is delivered in gmo soybean oil which has petunia, a nightshade, dna. If you thoroughly research solanine poisoning you will see the similarities : thyroid disruption, ibs, vomiting, nausea, mineral disregulation, especially calcium, neorological problems, vitamin d lowered and or suppressed, peeling skin or eczema , etc. I can’t say for sure but vitamin a toxicity seems similar enough to solanine poisoning that I am very suspicious.
Some more points. Solanine can cause birth defects and osteoporosis like vitamin a excess.. It is fat soluble with a very long half life. It can take up to a year or more to detox it from your body. Different people have different tolerances for solanine. Some can ingest tons with no apparent harm. Others like me are sick with the smallest amounts. It’s apparently the same with man made vitamin a. I hear of people, such as on the ray peat forum, taking huge quantities and apparently do fine. Others take a mere pill, as this forum attests, and get sick. I myself wish I knew how man made vitamin a is made. I took vitamin a because I had not ingested animal retinol for about 6 years. I was clearly deficient in it. Beta carotene wasn’t getting me all the a i needed. Yet the small amount I took made me very sick with vitamin a toxicity. It is worth noting that the UN gives vitamin a supplements to people in third world countries. The vitamin a is delivered in two mega dose pills. 200,000iu for an adult woman in one pill. Wondering what the real effects of this is on these defenseless people.
Solanine may interact in some fashion (my guess would be it displaces bound up retinol, which then goes somewhere in the body and causes havoc), but the culprit seems to be retinol (and retinoic acid). Have you read the ebooks I will link below? You will be stunned what you learn about this so-called vitamin (retinoic acid was an early chemo drug…it is TOXIC and well established that it can literally destroy every cell in the body). Once this knowledge gets out, vitamin A will be dropped as an essential nutrient (I think vitamin D might be as well, as it’s touted benefits might simply be because it is blocking retinol from causing damage as they share receptor sites,…these are both actually hormones, and need to be respected as such and not lumped into vitamins like the Bs and C that are generally quite safe as they are water soluble).
https://ggenereux.blog/
Hi,
Has anyone here tried Sulforaphane?
For the purpose of eliminating Vitamin A excess faster and general liver protection.
VA elimination is primarily dependent on alcohol and aldehyde dehydrogenase for metabolism and expenditure. This is the rate-limiting step. They convert Retinol into Retinoic acid which is non-toxic and quickly broken down.
Sulforaphane is a potent and reliable inducer and activator of Aldehyde Dehydrogenase, the rate limiting enzyme in VA expenditure.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5172892/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23825090/
Studies show Sulforaphane activates and induces Aldehyde Dehydrogenase 2-5 fold, dose dependently.
I know this mechanism alleviates VA toxicity since I already tried other agents which do the same thing, although I had to stop using them due to side effects. Sulforaphane on the other hand is harmless; derived from broccoli (sprouts).
I have already ordered and will be testing this one shortly.
Alcohol and aldehyde dehydrogenased also break down Retinol and Retinal. And their activity is significantly increased by Sulforaphane.
Hi, Sk!
I`m not tried sulphoraphane as extract, but I ate broccoli every day for almost a month after I started to feel overdose sympthoms, and those sympthoms getting much worser after I stop ate it (and I stoped after find out broccoli is full of beta-carotene) and go to the near-zero vit A diet. Don`t know if this a coincidence, but this can work.
Hey Igor,
I know recovery can be facilitated by induction of certain enzymes (aldehyde and alcohol dehydrogenase, possibly cyp2b and cyp2c). Some drugs have even shown induction of RBP and CYP26, which would be ideal.
The problem is just finding an inducer that does the job without hazardous side effects.
I receive my Sulforaphane latet today. I”ll write back if it helps.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5172892/
https://academic.oup.com/alcalc/article/48/5/526/209660
Two studies on aldehyde dehydrogenase induction by Sulforaphane. Aldehyde dehydrogenase also metabolizes retinoids.
The induction is 2-5 fold.
Sulforaphane has also shown to indude cyp1a2 and 2a6.
Hey SK!
Actually, sulforaphane can do much more than just ALDH induce, it is a potent anti-cancer and anti-aging agent.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22578879
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17723168
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23110644
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-642-38007-5_12
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22583415
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25241332
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAGE_ (receptor)
Since retinoids shortening telomeres, such an anti-aging agent will be very useful for us to at least stay on pair with people who not poisoned theirselves with vit-A megadoses.
http://www.pnas.org/content/101/14/5111.abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC34517/
http://www.nature.com/leu/journal/v20/n4/full/2404127a.html
If you will find out that sulforaphane really work, I suggest to use Teprenone (many thanks for info about geranylgerranylacetone) microdoses to prevent retinol esterification along with sulforaphane to crack retinol through ALDH induction effect. In long-term perspective, however, we will need something to restore telomeres in our cells, like Astragalus root.
And may be we need to slightly reduce vit E consumption, because vit E excess downregulates RBP production.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22499871
What do you think7
The problem we face is very simple to understand, but difficult to solve.
The problem is simply that there is too much Vitamin A inside the body. That’s all. Every time I come upon something that reduces circulating or absorbed amounts of VA, all symptoms of toxicity disappear. (PPIs, tamoxifen, and bile acid sequestrants helped but I stopped due to side effects.)
What makes it difficult is that doctors and scientists haven’t found a cure for this yet.
At the moment I only use Sulforaphane. I can say that it definitely reduces symptoms of VA toxicity.
But I think the desired effects are due to adaptive changes; upregulating ALDH. As the studies showed highest inductive effects after 7 days of use.
I will continue usage and come to a conclusion after 7 days of use.
Today is day 2.
It was my brother’s birthday and I could have lots of dairy-based cake with no issue *big smile!*
It also seems to increase elimination rate of caffeine.
Hi, SK!
Glad to hear that sulforaphane is working for you.
But there is one thing that I can’t understand: why do you stop using teprenone if it worked so well? Any side effects?
Hi Igor,
Thanks for the very engaged comments. Do you also suffer from VA toxicity? What are your symptoms? What were the causes? And most importantly: What have you found relieves symptoms?
What relieves symptoms for me the most is… it’s going to sound obvious, but fasting. Not eating.
I discontinued Teprenone because of side effects. I started getting severe attention issues, feeling an emptiness or very slow mental processing (“stupid”, I guess). And facial flushing. I guess the symptoms were because more retinol was released into circulation as opposed to being stored as retinyl esters. But the cognitive impairment was too severe. Had to discontinue it. It felt like some sort of Anemia.
Hi SK,
First of all, many thanks for your posts, each is very useful! And sorry for my bad English.
Yes, I suffer from chronic vit-A toxicity. The story started two years ago when I decided to lead a healthy lifestyle and adopted a diet high if cheese, fish, a lot of green veggies and three-to-four cups of green tea per day. I also tried to build some muscles on my thin body, using gainer (5000IU vit A per oz. as I noticed later).
Everything was going well, but in Nov 2017 I started to feel strange weakness and start to loose weight quickly, visited several doctors but everything was OK except calcium in blood (it was slightly elevated comparing to my analysis of last year, but still within a reference diapasone) and moderately elevated blood pressure. They said it was just stress and that I just need more sleep. In Dec 2017 my sympthoms started to getting worse.
Main sympthoms were:
Dry skin
Small, but noticeable inflammation in eyes
Tinnitus
Headache
Drowsiness
Muscle pain (mainly in back)
light form of IBD + biliary dyskinesia
Slightly blurred vision(most notable in low-ligh conditions)
Elevated blood pressure
Rapid heartbit
After a brief googling I realised that it is most probably vit-A toxicity, but blood tests for both vit-A and vit-D were normal. Even after research it took some time for me to believe that it is really vit-A toxicity, because I couldn`t find any documented case peoples suffer from toxicity without receiving vit-A megadoses. Then I found out that blood test for retinol are all but accurate and to make sure it is really retinol poisoning I decided to do a little experiment on myself and take a few pills of retinol. It was probably the biggest mistake in my life.
After just two 5000IU pells I developed diarrhea, tinnitus, dizziness. head pressure and much more inflammation in eyes than ever before, Skin became extremely thin around eyes, I could (and still can, unfortunately) see blue veins around my eyes and it look like I am a Mad Mikkelsen`s character from Dr. Strange movie. All supplements were stoped immideately and I adopted near zero-A diet (I literally only eat rice and kidney beans with turkey breast twice a week). But I continued to drunk a lot of green tea.
Now, three month later, back pain, head pressure and headaches are almost gone, but blurred vision, red eyes, thin skin, tinnitus and IBD/biliary dyskinesia still with me. I think I already have billiary dyskinesia before vit-A intoxication, but it definitely aggravated it to the point where I need to take UDCA every day to have normal digestion. One of the last sympthoms (and the scarriest one ) started just a week ago – it is a chest pain (in left syde of the chest), so I will need to check heart (I know retinol can cause heart valve calcification).
I tried taurine, it slightly decreased blood pressure, but nothing more and I discontinued it after month. Then I started to use beta-blockers to supress blood pressure and heartbit, but discontinued since found out that it can cause permanent AV-block. Anyway now the blood pressure and heartbit disappeared. I also tried milk thistle but It seems to made sympthoms worse. After reading your posts I stopped green tea and start to feel slight improvements. Not tried echinacea because it can raise blood pressure. Now I am going to start teprenone 25mg along with sulforaphane 120mg daily. The main idea that teprenone will inhibit retionol esterification and sulforaphane will speed up retinol metabolism through ALDH induction effect. Hope no dangerous interactions will occur. What is your daily dose of sulforaphane?
Hello Igor,
Your case sounds nearly identical to mine.
The cause was the same: Green tea (also Yerba maté), a Vitamin A-rich diet (spinach, eggs, chicken liver), and a few supplements in addition to that (cod liver oil, multivitamin). My intention was the same as yours, to improve my health and well-being and muscle mass. It was the worst mistake of my life.
How much Sulforaphane did you intend to use? And which product?
120 mg Sulforaphane Glucosinolate? Each 30 mg Sulforaphane Glucosinolate only yields 8 mg active Sulforaphane.
I use this product: https://se.iherb.com/pr/Jarrow-Formulas-BroccoMax-Myrosinase-Activated-60-Veggie-Caps/4297
I use 3 capsules a day but might decrease to 2.
Which product will you be using?
And how did you obtain Teprenone?
In addition to ALDH induction by Sulforaphane, do you think we would benefit from anything else for increasing VA expenditure? I’m referring to precursors of RBP and NAD and cofactors of ALDH.
Best would probably be just to include some meat intake daily to get enough of those nutrients.
I recommend you do not consume anything else that might aggravate the condition or inhibit VA metabolism. (Such as tea, herbs and other CYP substrates or potential ALDH/ADH inhibitors.)
Unfortunately fasting is not an option for me, I have BMI 18 and there is almost no fat in my body (and I think it is one of the reasons why I overdosed with vit A so easy). I also use vit K2 MK7 400 mcg/day for almost two weeks to prevent heart valve and vascular calcification from retinol.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4052396/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3648716/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17138823
Hi SK,
I oredered Selbex, just have received order today.
https://www.mimaki-family-japan.com/item/detail?item_prefix=TF&item_code=005058&item_branch=001
It is in capsules, therefore I won`t be able to split them to low my dose, so no choice but to consume 50mg per day.
I also ordered the same Brocco Max product as you (it seems the only myrosinase activated sulforaphane form on iherb), 120 capsules. I plan to use 4 capsules per day.
I also tried to sprout broccoli seeds, unfortunately without any success at the moment. In broccoli sprouts there is 10-100 fold more sulforaphane than in adult broccoli.
At the moment I feel I know almost nothing about RBP synthesis and methabolism, all I know so far is that RBP transport and synthesis is somehow connected with dietary protein, zinc and thyroid hormones. To escape the hasty conclusions I need couple of days to research, will revert soon.
How many vegetables do you eat? I think we should avoid all vegetables for a while to minimize b-carotene intake. I read many times that b-carotene conversion to retinol is regulated by our bodies and when you are sufficient or excessed in retionol conversion will be stopped. But I think it is not true, at least in our case. Our bodies seems to convert b-carotene to retinol even when we have toxicity. I suggest to eat only white rice (not brown to avoid occasionally Mn overdose), kidney beans, buckwheat husk and couscous with beef and (very rarely) turkey breast.
Do you check your Vit-D level? Cod liver oil you used is reach in vit-D. I also consumed vit-D and now realise that it can make its own contribution to toxicity. Obviously our body have a limited capacity for fat-soluble vitamins and my hypothesis (yet to be proven) is that it is not only limited but that there is a competition between fat-soluble vits for their place under the sun (or I should say under the liver, haha) and we should avoid all the fat-soluble vitamins for a while, may be besides Vit-K. I am now in the middle of research, trying to understand the deep connection between our immune systems (mainly from the evolution point of view) and fat soluble vitamins. Is a shame that our bleeding-edge bioscience seems to know almost nothing at the moment and obviously missed some important connections (or may be just confuse correlations with cause-effect relation), but WHO already says that almost everybody is deficient in Vit-D (for example).
Hi Igor,
How is your experience with Selbex? What are the positive and/or negative effects,
I am still using Broccomax. Albeit at lower and lower dosages, as I am beginning to notice side-effects. Cognitive and verbal impairment (?). Have only been using 1-2 capsules a day lately.
RBP synthesis and cyp26 induction both seem to be dependent on RAR and PPAR activation. Not much to do about it.
Yes, carotene conversion is regulated by RAR activation. Normally the body would produce Retinoic acid as as an agonist and Carotene conversion would subsequently be downregulated. In case this seems to not occur. I guess RDH RALDH are occupied or absent. Other RAR agonists have helped decrease symptoms for me though.
Minimizing VA intake seems like the only natutal solution. I consume just enough to reach my RDI for VC and VK.
At the moment I have no other leads on how to solve this.
I theorized about using Eleuthero as a DGAT inhibitor (as DGAT KO animals have no retinoid storage) along with a Phase I enzyme / CYP inducer.
Might help.
Do you wish to correspond on email instead? We could collaborate and come to a faster solution. As it seems we are in the same boat.
Drop your email here if that is the case.
Hi SK,
Actually I don`t use Selbex now, wait for Broccomax order to arrive, because I planed to use both simultaneously. But now I think may be it were mistake. Found some additional info regarding ALDH and it seems that it plys a key role in retionol to retinoic acid conversion and this coversion can be uplifted when ALDH induced by sulforaphane. Retinoic acid is much more bioactive that retinol itself, this can be even more dangerous for us that simpe vit-A intox.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC122770
https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/128/2/459S/4724054
I agree that there is not much we can do to increase RBP production.
Maybe we should follow less complicated ways to eliminate retinol storage?
Since retinol is conjugated with bile salts, it seems that can should use choleretic and than (20-30 mins later, when the bile will be released to duodenum) activated charcoal to absorb it. Yes, it can lead to side effects like other fat soluble vitamins depletion and constipation but this procedure can be done not every day. What do you think?
Yes, we definitely should cooperate. Pls mail me on [email protected]
Hey SK ,
I am planning to take colestipol , Do you think that was effective and what are some of the side effects I should be worried about ?
Please let me know
Hey Dan,
First, out of curiosity, how did you obtain Colestipol?
What I used was Cholestyramine. But I assume the potential side effects and benefits of those two are similar since the mechanism of action is the same, almost.
Colestipol binds both Bile acids and especially Bile Salts, which are responsible and required for Vitamin A absorption.
I would use a low dose before meals in order to prevent Vitamin A absorption. Possibly also after meals.
Once you have ensured it can be used SAFELY you may increase the dose somewhat.
Retinol undergoes enterohepatic circulation in bile, and colestipol acts as a bile binding agent which interrupts that. The result is greater Vitamin A losses and inhibited absorption.
Potential side effects are:
Renal damage and Anemia.
Vitamin K and E deficiency.
Folate deficiency.
Elevated triglycerides.
Constipation.
If I had access to Colestipol I would give it a try. Research says it’s safer than Cholestyramine and has milder side-effects, which may be true.
Use it carefully, before meals, along with a Minimal Vitamin A diet.
(Basically, I’d include a small amount of vegetables for Vitamin C and K while excluding all other sources.)
Keep us posted!
doesn’t Sulforaphane contain vitamin a? won’t it contribute to the vitamin a level?
I tried astragalus root when I studied Chinese herbs in Taiwan.
I threw out my Teprenone and no longer have access to it.
I eat a low fat diet regularly and my VE intake is only from a small amount of vegetables.
I will only use one herb or supplement at a time now to avoid interactions. I want to control my variables. And I know anything I do use can cancel out the positive effects of something else. So I avoid it.
And once I conclude something isn’t curative I generally discard it to prevent re-usage.
Hello Brian,
I am so glad you’ve begun to feel better. Have you introduced vitamin A back into your diet?
Also during the time you were taking accutane did your symptoms also mimic that of your current vitamin a toxicity?
I was using retin A (tretinoin) and had symptoms of neurotoxicity that mimic vitamin A toxicity but I’m beginning to think hat maybe it was more neurotoxicity and less vitamin a overdose. Any thoughts?
Many thanks,
Ashley
No, definitely have not reintroduced vitamin A. It will be quite a while before I do this. I calculated a hypothetical half-life for the amount of vitamin A that I consumed and determined that it could take up to 4 years for it all to clear out. But, this number assumes a constant half-life and I don’t think the half-life is constant, so it will probably be sooner than that.
My plan once I begin consuming vitamin A again is to never go above 800 IU per day. There are a number of doctors who have brought a proposal forth to, I believe it was the USDA, to lower the recommended daily amount from 5000 IU to 800 IU because 5000 might be causing chronic, subclinical toxicity.
Yes, I had identical symptoms to the vitamin A toxicity when I took Accutane back in 2000. The only symptom that did not seem to be present back then was the memory loss. But, the severe, suicidal depression and crying, the vitamin D/sun allergy, the bleeding, cracking skin on my hands and heels, paranoia, and body dysmorphia all appeared for the first time with Accutane, and reappear when I get too much vitamin A.
Yes, I really typed body dysmorphia. My self-image changes drastically when I am toxic with vitamin A. It goes away completely when I remove vitamin A.
I am confused by your last statement. I think it is the excess vitamin A that causes neurotoxicity and this amount is different for different people because there is a wide variation in the ability for people to produce the retinoid-binding protein family.
Hello Brian,
Many thanks for your reply. I am so glad your doing better. I am bummed to know we may need more time before eating foods with vitamin a.
I decided to try ravioli a couple days ago and of course I had garlic bread too and now many symptoms have returned. I have head pressure brain fog and loads of anxiety.
I suppose in my last paragraph I was meaning to say that maybe my neurotoxicity occurred from the initial toxic load of vitamin A (retinoic acid) and that alone simply caused some nuerotoxic “damage” and maybe now I’m simply in recovery opposed to detoxing. I am not sure what is happening and honestly I would prefer it be the latter but again I feel in the dark with this. What I do know is that I have been vitamin A free for 3 months and I was feeling so much better that I thought maybe a little vitamin a in some ravioli would be a good idea and that assumption was wrong. Thank you again for your insight. I hope everybody is well. ❤️
Ashley
P.S. Lori I’m digging the new font! 😉
Hi Brian,
Could you explain how you calculated your approximate half-life? I’m a little confused as to how it all works, I thought that half-life meant rate of decay rather than rate of excretion, and that all the stored Vitamin A has the same half-life and so would decay fairly uniformly, regardless of the amount. But I take it I may be way off.
Thank you.
Thanks Ashley! 🙂
I can completely relate to your symptoms Brian…every one. Thank you for sharing…I’ve been on a low A diet for almost a year now. Symptoms are like a roller coaster, just awful sometimes. I feel like a human barometer for vitamin A. Symptoms are worse at night. My family thinks I’m crazy. This site helps me through, one day at a time.
Hi Ashley,
Just curious how long you used retin-a for…I developed symptoms after regular use for about a year and a half…it’s been almost a year since I discontinued use with only minimal improvement. I absolutely cannot tolerate any foods or natural topical ingredients with high vit A. Wondering if anyone has experienced this almost a year out.
Hello SK! It’s good to hear from you. I too was taking lions mane. I am feeling significantly better and decided on no supplemental support but I’m glad to know that that could have been helping. Maybe I will begin to take it again. I know it has amazing and clinically proven brain benefits which for me has been the most challenging of the effects from my Vit a toxicity. Please keep me posted on how your doing. How is everyone else? I’ve been thinking of you Julie. I hope your well.
Ashley
Hey people,
I don’t post a lot here anymore.
Just found something new in my research I’d like to share.
A way to accelerate expenditure and usage of all the retinol we’ve stored.
The method is induction of retinol metabolism.
How? A harmless and health contributing supplement.
Lion’s mane mushroom.
1. Lion’s mane boosts NGF up to 500%.
2. NGF in turns induces Retinol dehydrogenase and Retinal dehydrogenase, catalyzing Retinoic acid synthesis and vitamin a expenditure.
3. Lion’s mane also activates FXR greatly which leads to induction of PXR-mediated CYP3A4 and Alcohol Dehydrogenase (also functions as Retinol dehydrogenase).
For studies confirming all this, just google:
“Lions mane NGF”
“NGF retinol dehydrogenase” “NGF retinol” “NGF vitamin a / retinaldehyde dehydrogenase”
Etc.
“Lion’s mane ergosterol peroxide” “ergosterol peroxide FXR”.
Do you need to?
Of course not.
What I recommend you try as a curative solution is simply:
1. Minimize vitamin a intake.
2. No other supplements or drugs. Anything you use is more likely to prevent recovery than facilitate it. Even green tea prevents recovery.
3. Add Lion’s mane extract, from Mycelium.
That’s what I’ll be doing.
And this is the best recommendations I can give after researching this problem obsessively for 4+ years, on top of already having a technical background.
Hi! Im taking 2 tsp of fclo and just startwd taking dessicated liver in addition today cause my vitamin d is super low. You reached toxicity. Because of the added vitamin a right? You were fine when taking the fclo and liver capsules? Just wanna clarifiy cause i got nervous!
FCLO and liver capsules have a lot of vitamin a and ended up causing me a lot of problems because my vitamin d was low. I was supplementing CLO, dessicated liver capsules, and magnesium and ended up dealing w/ symptoms of vit a toxicity for months. It’s only improved by eliminating high vit a foods and supplementing vitamin d now. Be careful.
Hi! Im taking 2 tsp of fclo and just startwd taking dessicated liver in addition today cause my vitamin d is super low. You reached toxicity. Because of the added vitamin a right? You were fine when taking the fclo and liver capsules? Just wanna clarifiy cause i got nervous!
Yes, my naturopath prescribed the high dose of vitamin A, which is what caused vitamin A toxicity.
How did your vitamin A reducing diet go? Are you still feeling these symptoms? I’ve been going through the same exact symptoms from taking too much vitamin A. The thing is i only took 1 scoop of Animal Pak Multivitamin powder & instantly felt the rush to my head. I had no idea what my vitamin A levels were, but apparently they were high enough. I didnt know until after the fact that Animal Pak Multivitamin was heavy on Vitamin A containing 99,000 IU & never took it again after this feeling. The dizzyness, lightheadedness, dry mouth, hard breathing symptoms i was feeling slowed down with gallons of water, but often after the symptoms would come back after a meal (particularly a meal containing starch & high carbs) A month later i took 2 little scoops about not even a full ounce of Greens superfood multivitamin mixed with a protein shake & it didnt really help at all so i stopped taking that. its almost 3 months now & im still feeling these symptoms & they’re worse than ever & i feel like theres some sort of clot on the top of my brain. Just wondering how long does this process take to get Vitamin A out of your system.
Hi Lennox, I just check the product you mentioned. The label says 9,900IU. Are you sure the one you took was 99,000IU? How long were you taking it for? Hope you feel better soon!
Hello all! I am thinking of you all today. I am feeling better as the days go on. I’m not sure if my brain is just readjusting or if I am actually getting back to “normal” but whatever it is I will take it. Let me know.
Ashley
Hey Ashley, really glad you’re feeling better. I’ve also gone/going through the spaciness you talked about, where you don’t feel like yourself and everything feels off, and that’s probably the worst symptom. But even that’s very slowly ebbing away. I hope it is for you as well.
Glad to hear you’re feeling better 🙂
Ashley,
SO thankful you are feeling better! What a journey we all have been on! I am super grateful for ALL the comments and yes I read them ALL! It seems I am getting better slowly. Those eggs did set me back:)! Lol.
I have less head aches, less dizziness, eye sight is better, muscles twitches come and go BUT the Epsom salt baths help a lot.
BUT what seems to be more of an issue is my immunity. I can’t seem to stay healthy! Urg.
Strep lead to laryngitis, bronchitis led to pneumonia. I just can’t catch a break. Newest symptom is IBS. Yes. Horrible. Is that A related? I noticed people saying they had that as a symptom.
What should I do? Did it get better?
Its like one bad thing after another.
Which leads me to ask if any one has heart issues because of vitamin A?
Brian any thoughts? Lori?
Thanks friends. This momma NEEDS to get stronger!❤
Vitamin D!!! Vitamin A in excess drains your vitamin D, zinc, and magnesium. I dont think the serum vitamin A test is accurate as other people have said. I’m sure I had A toxicity and my serum levels were on the low side. If you can get your D levels checked i’m surw they are a bit low or even severly low. Especially in the winter months. My instagram @the.skin.struggle.is.real I documented my vitamin a and d usage and how I recovered from vitamin A toxicty which madw my seasonal depressiom x10 worse. Vitamin d, zinc, and magnesium glycenate all work together for you braun, immunity, and overall health. Good luck! I urge anyone that has vit A overdose to really get their D checked and take the recommended supplements to help your mind and body
Do vitamin E supplements help or not?
Hi, sorry for my bad english.
If you have vit a toxic you need vitamin K2 m7 150—250 ug day. Your problem from vitamin a toxic is from high calcium in blood, intake of magnesium glycianate 400 mg and vitamin K2-7 help you much in 2 days, i have same symptom as you people in 2 weeks and when i read about K2 and try this, my problem disapear in 2 days. And i have terrible symptom like you people. Good luck everyone.
I also must disagree here. Vitamin A has been shown to cause hypercalcemia in some people, but not everyone. I never developed hypercalcemia, even in the period right after stopping the supplements. My blood tests prove this.
Supplementing with things willy nilly like this to try and correct a problem that was started by supplementation is treacherous and will likely lead to further harm.
For instance, I cannot tolerate vitamin K2 supplements. I experience symptoms of hypocalcemia, even with elevated calcium intake. You never know what is going to happen when you supplement with isolated nutrients like this. This is the real lesson to be learned from the vitamin A overdose. You may think what you are taking is safe, but it may turn out not to be and, when this happens, it is too late.
So in regards to magnesium and k2
you are better off getting k2 in its whole form from the japanese food “natto”. I too have been experiencing symptoms of hypercalcemia. Instead of supplementing (which can get risky as you are taking a nutrient in isolation), you can eat natto
The japanese often eat natto daily for years. it contains not jut mk-7 but beneficial gut bacteria and other forms of k2 I believe
Also; instead of eating magnesium capsules, you should switch to mangesium spray. Magnesium absorbs much better through the skin. This is why epsom salt baths and transdermal magnesium is better. I have been doing 20 sprays of magnesium in the monring and 20 in the evening. It is impossible to overdose as your body rejects what it doesn’t need. it takes the exact amount that it needs in
just wanted to touch on both of those. stay away from supplements and try and get these things in whole food form. the benefits of magnesium spray are the same as taking a bath in a hot spring or swimming in the ocean. both of these waters have sizable magnesium content. noone overdoses or gets side effects from bathing/swimming. Worst case scenario one can get dry skin. thats it
But yes, both of those nutrients have done wonders for me in their whole food form
I really appreciate your reply, George. Thank you. I’m forcing myself to press towards the same goals I had before this all happened. It is very challenging though. Interesting on the beta carotene. I know we really need the fruits and veggies so your probably right to stick to those containing the least bits of VA.
Thanks again and please keep me posted guys. It feels better knowing I’m not the only soul on earth going through this.
Ashley W
Hi, everyone! How are you all feeling? I have a couple questions. First, are we okay to have beta carotene? Should that too be limited? Would anyone who has suffered with the lack of concentration tell me when that subsided for them and what they did to concentrate during tests or school?
Please let me know how you all are doing.
P.S. Lori, I’m diggin the site changes. 😉
Ashley
Hey Ashley,
as to beta-carotene, as you probably know it is handled differently by the body from retinol and much less of it is absorbed, and that’s dependent on a lot of factors. All the info I could find says that carotene does not contribute to hypervitaminosis A, which is seen to be a purely retinol issue, and that the body won’t ‘cleave’ the carotene if it senses sufficient retinol (I’m no expert though). There is a fair amount anecdotal evidence against it on this forum, saying it too worsens symptoms which may or may not be psychosomatic, worth bearing in mind.
You could always just play it safe as I do and avoid anything very high in it like carrots, but be fine with those fruits and vegetables which have very small amounts. In fact often those will have other vitamins and nutrients you might be lacking from eating a diet restricting fruits and veg in the first place in the first place. Or be super safe and stick to stuff that has almost none but are still nutritional powerhouses, like cauliflower and pomegranates.
For reference it’s been 8 weeks since I’ve stopped vitamin A and I still have concentration issues, despite the fact that many of the other symptoms, especially the physical ones, have subsided massively. Hard to read more than a few pages etc. Maybe someone else can help with a short term workaround.
Be well.
Thank you Ashley! Glad to hear you like the site changes 🙂 I limited beta carotene. I cut out anything high in vitamin A (carrots, sweet potato etc.). It’s most important to cut out any animal based foods with retinol (liver, egg yolk, cream, butter etc.).
I am on board with the no supplementing in general but I am taking Taurine and PPC and they are helping me especially with my brain issues. I had a cold recently and decided to get some supplemental zinc, vitamin c, and echinacea lozenges and boy am I glad I did. I had marked improvement in symptoms. I did notice that they say one should only supplement with zinc for a short period of time. I do not know scientifically why.
Julie, your right about the egg yolks having vitamin a and I hope my recommendation earlier didn’t throw you off or make you feel worse. I wanted to help you find an option to get the phosphotidylcholine aside from a supplement and eggs are what I found. I’m so sorry. How are you feeling now?
Thank you Brian, Dan, and George for your inputs. I appreciate them.
Two give my two cents regarding the skepticism of supplements here, I would defend two, namely zinc and taurine, both for their effectiveness and their relative harmlessness. To quote from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK222318/:
Retinol is metabolized in the liver to numerous products, some of which are conjugated with glucuronic acid or taurine for excretion in bile (Sporn et al., 1984). The portion of excreted vitamin A metabolites in bile increases as the liver vitamin A exceeds a critical concentration. This increased excretion has been suggested to serve as a protective mechanism for reducing the risk of excess storage of vitamin A (Hicks et al., 1984).
Seems a strong case for supplementing taurine to me. And as for zinc:
However, a low plasma retinol concentration also may result from an inadequate supply of dietary protein, energy, or zinc, all of which are required for a normal rate of synthesis of RBP (Smith et al., 1974).
Likewise for zinc, particularly if you’re not a frequent meat eater.
The only point i’d like to make is that for these two supplements not only is the evidence very strong, not just from these sources but from others, as well as anecdotal evidence from people on this forum earlier and from my own personal experience, but they are so harmless and safe in sensible quantities that taking them and potentially seeing faster improvements is well worth it considering the suffering retinol can cause and has caused all of us. Not at least trying them when the evidence is so strongly in their favour feels like needlessly prolonging suffering.
George,
I have to disagree with you here. One should generally not supplement with zinc unless they are already getting a significant amount of copper in their diet as the two have to be consumed at a certain ratio. The general consensus is 8Zn:1Cu, but this may not be entirely accurate. I have seen ratios as low as 3Zn:1Cu thrown out there as being ideal, especially for people with cardiac issues.
The typical western diet is markedly deficient in copper, the average person getting roughly .6mg per day. The optimal amount may be closer to 1.5mg to 2mg in the context of even just a modest zinc intake.
Supplementing with zinc pushes this ratio too high and a relative copper deficiency can lead to serious cardiac consequences.
Moreover, metal supplements, in general, are not processed by the body the way metals found in food are. The absorption mechanism is entirely different. It is virtually impossible to raise the levels of free metal ions in the blood with food. But, it is possible to do so with supplements because the body did not evolve mechanisms to deal with excess metals in the form found in supplements. Excess retinol tends to upregulate the unregulated formation of reactive oxygen species. The combination of free metal ions and an increased level of retinol in the blood is a recipe for disaster as they will speed up the formation of reactive oxygen species even more. This causes cell death, especially for neurons in the brain.
I definitely oppose zinc supplementation, especially without a doctor’s recommendation to do so.
As for taurine, this molecule is typically abundant in flesh meat. So, if you are consuming a significant amount of meat, supplementing more of it would likely be useless.
Brian – thank you for the reply and for all your earlier posts, I and everyone here has benefited from them greatly.
And i agree with you regarding the zinc:copper ratio – I got my hypervitaminosis primarily from eating way too much pork liver, which also happens to have a terrible copper to zinc ratio, as well as other copper rich/zinc poor foods, and tests showed my plasma levels at least to be unhealthy in terms of the ratio (though take plasma levels of those with some skeptisism).
I would like to clarify that both zinc deficiency and copper deficiency are relatively rare, though zinc less so for vegetarians and vegans. For them, supplementation many be warranted, as you say based on a doctors recommends. For us here, being that zinc is crucial for RBP production, we definitely don’t want to be deficient in it. And for this reason we should ensure that we are getting at least our RDA of it (also zinc excretion is increased massively during stress and anxiety, i have read anywhere from 4x to much more). I would totally agree that getting it from red meat is preferable to supplements, but if you can’t or won’t, then supplementation, if only in small amounts and for the short run, may be advised.
A similar story with taurine, meat eaters have less need to supplement, but again the anectodal evidence is so strong that it helps and I add myself here, and I doubt that all those people were vegetarians. There was also the mechanistic evidence i quoted earlier. It is also so non toxic, again in sensible amounts, that I don’t see a reason to not at least trying it. It’s also dirt cheap and used in large quantities by a lot of other people for various reasons. You say additional supplementation would likely be useless, yet you nor I nor anyone else could make a claim to know whether or not additional taurine would help at a time when excess retinol is being shuttled out through our bile by binding to taurine, but being that it might, why not try?
This whose thing is confounded by individual requirements. I wish to get back of all supplements as soon as possible too, and to your point too much of any mineral or supplement is almost always worse than too little, and harder to reverse. Many of us have learnt that the hard way.
Although zinc deficiency is likely to be very rare in the western diet because it is so meat-rich and full of zinc-fortified foods, I think copper deficiency is much more common. The general consensus that copper deficiency is rare is most likely based on the faulty assumption that .9mg per day are adequate. I, think, and a fair number of scientists agree with me, that the ideal amount would be more like 1.5-2mg per day in the context of the zinc-rich American diet. The studies I have seen show a markedly increased risk of heart disease in various forms (especially cardiac arrhythmias like atrial fibrillation) when people consume .6-.9mg per day.
My opinion is that copper deficiency is common. In fact, nearly everyone in developed countries is likely to be deficient.
Again, I have to disagree with taking metal supplements for the biochemical reasons I stated above. Metals from supplements are extraordinarily more toxic than metals from food, even in small amounts.
One reason not to try taurine supplements is that you are taking this molecule outside of its natural context. After studying biochemistry for so many years, I have come to understand one fundamental fact. We know less than 1% of what there is to know about food and nutrition. There are likely to be many nutrients and anti-nutrients we have yet to discover. There could be a molecule or a set of molecules present in meat that is required for proper taurine metabolism and you would be missing these by supplementing. This principle applies to all nutrients and is something I learned the hard way after years of abusing supplements and extreme diets.
My philosophy now is to avoid all supplements unless specifically requested to take them by a doctor.
I would also like to point out some sage advice I learned in grad school. We are required to take courses on “critical analysis” of scientific publications. These courses are incredibly rigorous and require us to comb through papers over and over while we critique and debunk bad science. I don’t know if you have any scientific training or not. But, a very large number of publications, even publications in the most prestigious journals, are just plain wrong. Some are blatantly fabricated, some do the wrong experiments and then make faulty conclusions on the results, some completely misinterpret their data, and some do no controls. A lot of these are in journals like nature and science, the most prestigious ones.
It takes years of training and practice to learn how to critically analyze scientific work. So, it is a little haphazard if you are not a scientist to try and interpret studies. Not because you are not intelligent. But, because the researchers involved in a lot of studies are incompetent and either inadvertently or willfully mislead the readers of their papers.
We must remember that there are more factors at play. Being next to a computer for many hours a day has been shown in a study to decrease levels of antioxidants in the body of men and women. In women, it has been shown to cut their Zinc levels in half. This is theoretically due to EMF exposure. Zinc impacts some extremely crucial functions of the body such as the thyroid that can have a massive impact on so many of your other functions. We must also remember that supplementing with more than 15mg of Zinc per day has been shown to deplete Copper levels in some fashion. Yes, just 20mg of supplementation a day has been shown to decrease Copper! Unfortunately, many Americans really are Zinc deficient and probably need more than 15mg extra a day to get their levels properly restored. It is all quite complicated and there are no quick fixes but Zinc and Magnesium supplements are just too impactful to be written off as bandaids — they are an extremely effective helper for thyroid/chronic fatigue/anxiety/depression/etc and even a cure for insomnia for so many people!
Also worth noting that often deficiencies have nothing to do with diet — stress, sleep deprivation, and other factors can and do cause them and the band-aid fix of supplementation is often more than worth it to give a decent quality of life if the person does not know how to fix the underlying issue, cannot fix it, or has not fixed it yet.
Again, I have to disagree. Most people in America are copper deficient, not zinc deficient. Zinc is abundant in most people’s diets. However, copper is not.
Additionally, I stated the biochemical mechanisms previously as to why one should not supplement with metals. Metals from food are processed very differently from the inorganic metals in supplements. Only inorganic metals like those seen in supplements and drinking water can lead to elevated levels of free metal ions in the body. It is the free metal ions that are dangerous. Metals from food do not cause this.
Hi Brian,
I recently started using Dr Carolyn Dean’s Pico-Magnesium liquid called ReMag. Also her ReMyte liquids of 12 other minerals/metals. Have you an insight regarding her contention that size matters, particularly the size required for entry into the cell. Soil depletion is a concern regarding magnesium and other minerals. Thanks, John
John,
Carolyn Dean has been exposed as a fraud several times in the past. Although magnesium is important for a variety of functions, I don’t believe there is any benefit to getting more than the RDA for most people. Some people actually feel worse by taking more, even before reaching bowel tolerance levels. Personally, I need a lot more calcium than magnesium compared to other folks because I am autistic and have blood-oxalate levels that are roughly 3 times greater than for normal people. This causes large amounts of calcium to be sequestered and unavailable for use by the body so I have to take a lot more calcium than non-autistic people. Magnesium and vitamin K2 both seem to make this oxalate problem worse for me because they both lower blood-calcium levels. So, I only get modest amounts of each.
Her contention that “size matters” is dubious. Mg2+ ions are all the same size. There is no nano-meter version or pico-meter version. They are all the exact same size. The only sources of information on “pico-ionic minerals” that I can find anywhere all link directly back to Carolyn Dean which makes me highly skeptical of the claim.
This idea that smaller Mg2+ ions can directly enter cells is total nonsense. Cells are selectively permeable to most things except water, CO2, O2, and other gases. Both the size and the charge matter. Even if you could somehow shrink the Mg2+ down, you still would have the 2+ charge to contend with. Although the polar head groups of the fatty acids that make up the cell membrane would likely attract the 2+ charge of the Mg, it would get stuck on the outside because the inside of the membrane is made up of hydrophobic fatty acid tails that “reject” charged elements and molecules. The only way for Mg2+ to enter the cell is through special channels that specifically recognize it and allow it to enter.
If you want to take magnesium, you’re probably better off getting the citrate, chloride, or glycinate form from a reputable supplement supplier. It will be cheaper and at least, if not more, effective than her snake oil products.
Just putting it out there…. I am sure you all knew but do not eat egg yolks. Ha. They have 245 iu of vitamin A. Urg!! Explains my dizziness, eye sensitivity to light and head ache.
Is anyone’s lymph nodes swollen like under your ears? Anyone? Mine have been hurting and I am not sure if it is A related.
Thank you all for the reminder and encouragement that this all just takes TIME. I am on month 5 and have good and bad days still.
I only eat one egg yolk a day , as it contains PPC which might help in recovery ,but of course too many egg yolks are bad in Vitamin A toxicity .
Even i had enlarged lymph nodes specifically under ear . I think during toxicity bodies defense mechanism against infections and bacteria weakens which explains we we got lymph nodes more frequently . I am at 14 months , but still mild symptoms . I believe another 2-3 months I will be fine . At least mental symptoms have been better which is the most distributing aspect of toxicity from vitamin A.
Also I have recently tried using milk thistle ( only drug I have used so far since toxicity ) and I think it does help a bit
Good Luck with the recovery process
Yes. Egg yolks are off limits for a while.
I have been toxic with vitamin A twice. I was toxic originally because I had been inadvertently eating a lot of vitamin A in my diet (actually it was only about 2500 IU per day which is less than the RDA, but I and many other scientists think that the upper limit should be about 800 IU per day). One of the ways I can tell that I am close to full recovery is food allergies.
I took Accutane in 2000 and became allergic to a multitude of foods, some of which caused anaphylaxis.
The same thing happened to me in 2015 after having been on a “high-vitamin A” diet for about 6 years. After 6 or so months of zero vitamin A, the food allergies disappeared.
After overdosing on the supplement this past spring, these exact same food allergies (to the exact same foods) reappeared. Before, I could eat potatoes and citrus fruits all day with no problem. For the last 8 months, I would develop severe allergic symptoms if I had even a little.
I just discovered that I can eat these foods again with no problems. This likely means that I am close to full recovery.
Time is the best antidote. I also feel that adding in this or that supplement to try and overcome the vitamin A toxicity is not the best idea because this is how we ended up in this mess in the first place.
Hi, Dan. What are your vision issues exactly? Seeing is off or cloudy vision? I am curious because my vision is off also. My brain feels off to but I’m so glad to hear that may have cleared up for you.
Ashley
Blurry Vision / Cloudy Vision and stuff sometimes looks too bright and bright light used to trigger dizziness
What a great message, Brian. Thank you for sharing this. I am holding onto hope that time is all it takes.
Ashley
A message of hope:
I took roughly 4 million IUs (100,000 IU per day for 5 weeks or so). Stopped in mid-May.
Have been dealing with pretty rough memory and brain troubles since. It has been about 8 months. Suddenly during the holidays, my brain upshifted and a lot of the fog cleared. It is not 100% but is much closer than it was before. It’s functioning quickly and I no longer lose my train of thought. I barely made it through last semester because of the memory troubles. Those suddenly lifted over Christmas and I can now function at school like I did before the overdose.
It is simply a matter of time with vitamin A toxicity. The body will heal itself. Just be patient.
Same here , A message of hope to others and a suggestion
I have had the same symptoms mostly mental ones since past 14 months , and were gradually decreasing , but this month all together symptoms are negligible . I think I have recovered almost 98 % another 2-3 months and I guess I will be fine . I don’t get disturbing anxious thoughts or nervousness anymore . dizziness has also subsided the only renaming Mild symptom is stomach issue and bit of vision problem , but I feel like I will get off them very soon .
I didn’t take any kind of medication or herb for it , just tried to stay away from vitamin A rich foods . I want to mention that keeping a stable healthy nutritious diet in toxicity is actually helpful and reduces the recovery time as I felt so .
Another important piece of advice I would like to give to people over here is that many of us are researching and discussing about using other unknown drugs to fasten the recover , lets not forget the we acquired this toxicity by abusing vitamin supplements which everybody has a general idea that they are quite safe. The best suggestion is to be safe and lets not try to put our selves in another trouble by misusing some other drug in the bait of faster recovery . Let yourself heal naturally .
Good luck to all and hope you recover soon
To anyone who may not have found it in their research of this, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK222318/ has some excellent clinical information on hypervitaminosis A . Especially interesting to those wondering how long this might take to heal is: “The percentage of total body vitamin A stores lost per day was approximately 0.5 percent in adults consuming a vitamin A-free diet (Sauberlich et al., 1974). ”
Or ~ 200 days for 100%, around 7 months. I’m sure things like taurine and zinc will hasten this, and have felt them doing so for me.
If nothing else try not to stress out if you’re still having symptoms months into the process 🙂
Hi everyone! How is everyone feeling? I am sort of back peddling a bit and it’s scary. Any chance anyone went through this? One week your feeling better (not 100% but better) and then you get back to the heavy brain fog and anxiety/depression, vision issues. 😔 I feel so hopeless now. Almost 2 months since the initial toxicity.
Hi again,
I found another thing that helps alleviate the symptoms of va toxicity.
This one is safe and has a long history of use in traditional and modern medicine.
Echinacea purporea.
Seems to increase elimination of Vitamin A.
My theory is that this is due to:
Induction of CYP enzymes and Dehydrogenases (retinaldehyde) via activation of:
Pxr. Ahr. And TLR2.
It’s safe in low doses, especially if you use trusted brands. And if you suffer from chronic toxicity like me, you have nothing to lose.
The extract I used was “Echinaforce”, made from echinacea purporea.
As I am Sweden, this product was the market leader: https://m.avogel.se/se/produkter/lakemedel/echinaforce_droppar.php
Hi, SK!
I`ve found some info about bile acid reabsorbtion inhibitors. As far as I understand these drugs are still in different phases of clinical trials, but principle of their action looks promising for us. Elobixibat was recently approved for use in Japan, but I failed to find where to buy it. Any ideas ?
https://www.thepharmaletter.com/article/elobixibat-approved-in-japan-for-the-treatment-of-chronic-constipation
Hello, Esther. Thank you for sharing that with us. I was using the topical form of accutane and had a bad reaction. Dizziness, headaches, intracranial hypertension, depression, and anxiety. I tried two things that have been mentioned here by a few folks. One is called PPC or Phosphotidylcholine. I use a liquid form of this by the brand quicksilver. I got it on amazon. I also ordered a non essential amino acid called Taurine which has helped also. The PPC gave me the best results. Very quick. They will help your liver and brain out during your detox stage. Give them a try. The side effects from accutane do mimic those of vitamin a toxicity and should be treated as such.
Is there a way you could find a different doctor? One that could help you navigate through this while also believing and trusting you? There are clinical studies and published articles of the side effects of tretinoin and your doctor should believe you. Have you looked into scalp oils? I’m sorry your going through this. Please keep us posted.
Ashley
Hello, Ashley, and thanks for replying. You mentioned finding another doctor, and that is a big part of my frustration, I tried two after the unfortunate experience with the one who prescribed me Accutane, but they did not really believed me, one of them even said I was a phenomenon. I find that surprising because, like you mentioned, there is a lot of information, scientific and on other sites where people share their experience with Accutane, on medical sites also. I am just terribly sorry I did not googled more information once I started Accutane. I was so happy my acne was gone and my hair was gorgeous while on Accutane, it was oily before. It did not get oily for days while on drug, and it became a lot thicker, so I never thought anything could go wrong. My sebaceous glands went into overdrive after stopping the drug and now my hair is oily after several hours. I am using some oils for several moths now, well six months nearly, jojoba, coconut and chia seed in combination with rosemary, peppermint and tea tree oil. I will also be using fenugreek, I read it helps in restoring damaged follicles. But, so far, there is no regrowth.
Hey Esther, how are things 1 year later?
Another toxic person here.
I’m 27 and took Accutane in 2005. Over 12 years of Chronic issues; Fatigue, Constipation, Severe Anxiety and Mood Swings, Sexual Dysfunction, Mental Confusion, Dry Eye Syndrome, Cold Body (Low Thyroid?) and some Weight Gain. All of these health problems started during and after the drug.
I pray that I can overcome this but sometimes it’s very hard to believe I will.
I’m going to take Taurine and maybe PPC. I have tried many supplements over the years, to no avail. I avoid retinol foods as I’m on a Vegan diet and have been for a few years (more out of ethics than believing it’s the healthiest thing).
I believe I was on 50mg of Accutane (less to begin) for 5 months… it’s mad that the damage can be so long lasting. I can only hope this isn’t permanent. One thing is sure, time hasn’t been enough to heal me.
You all seem very determined, and I wish the best for you.
Stefan,
Others have had more success when they avoid retinol as well as beta carotene.
Good luck
Hello everybody,
I just want to say this is the most comprehensive conversation with a lot of scientific information about vitamin A toxicity. My story revolves around Accutane, I was on 20 mg for a year. Once the horrendous hair fall began, after stopping Accutane, my doctor who prescribed it to me, completely ignored what is happening. I just recently found out that Accutane should not be used for more than 9 months. My hair fall lasted for 10 months. and it has been a year since it stopped, but my hair never grew back. I feel awful and I am not sure what to do, I have bald spots and thinning all over my scalp. I will follow some of the advice given here, but I think I can say goodbye to my lovely naturally blond once thick hair…And I’m only 28. I also experienced many of the symptoms mentioned here, dizziness, depression and a lot problems with gastrointestinal tract, which caused me to gain significant amount of weight around my stomach. I should exercise and remove all that fat, but I am afraid of the hair fall if VA is released into the bloodstream…I am definitely buying a wig, though, I don’t have a choice anymore.
I just learned that the dizziness and head pressure is NOT caused by Vitamin A toxicity but by neck strain from computer use and poor posture. Physical therapy and lifestyle changes can correct that.
I’ve been adding some A and beta carotene into my diet with no adverse effects.